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A home for the arts

At the recently held Cacique Awards many of the artistes made a call for the long overdue establishment of a home for the arts. In the following Q&A, drama critic Raymond Ramcharitar spoke with National Drama Association of Trinidad and Tobago (NDATT) president Davlin Thomas about this and other issues facing local theatre.

Published in Sunday Mix
Sunday Express 22 August 2004

Raymond Ramcharitar: So, when did your term begin?

Davlin Thomas: December, 2003

RR: Two things about NDATT: one, it's been around for a long time; and two, it's been making noises of late about a home for the arts - it's been a cause célèbre for the last few years

DT: Well, yes, but more so since December, 2003. We are determined to have a national theatre.

RR: And how would you define a national theatre?

DT: Well, a space that accommodates the theatre practitioner, and we're looking at ensuring that it's in the capital city, and that it's accessible to the practitioner. Currently what's happening with Queens Hall and so on is that the prices are exorbitant, it's inaccessible, and we're really looking for a place to accommodate the evolution of the thing itself, of a national theatre ideology. Because if you ask someone what is the national performance of Trinidad, nobody could tell you … it's very difficult to identify that. So we are saying that you give people the space to experiment.

RR: You've said a lot of interesting things there. First of all: the insistence on the capital city. Why? Everything else is in the capital city.

DT: Well, the bottom line is that, traditionally, for national theatres worldwide, the capital city has a theatre. And that's the bottom line, that's the beginning focus, the focal point, that we as a nation do not put the kind of importance that we ought to do on the capital city. It's their centre, you know …

RR: Alright. First of all, you're comparing to a first world country. There's more than one capital city in many first world countries. I mean London, is obviously the capital of England, but there's Manchester, Brighton, there are other centres, each of which is a capital city in some sense. Two, you're not taking into account the nature of urban development. POS is overcrowded, parking problems, real estate is sky high, and there's also a new phenomenon in the first world where the urban sprawl pushes the arts and the artistic centres to fringes. Artists move into the urgan ghettoes, take over lofts, and start movements there.

DT: Yeah, but the bottom line is that the national performance space still exists in the capital city there

RR: One does, but there are several others outside …

DT: But we don't even have one. To use that analogy implies we have an existing infrastructure. We don't even have the basic.

RR: But there's the other point that development is overwhelmingly concentrated in Port of Spain. In some ways, Port of Spain is a different country from the rest of the island … wouldn't that just promote the notion of art and theatre as elitist things to which the rest of the country would not have access?

DT: No, we're not saying that, that we want to have the only theatre in Trinidad and Tobago in the capital city. We're saying that we want to have the National theatre in the capital city. The expectation is that amphitheatres and theatres ought to exist in the growth poles throughout the island. But we need to begin at some point, and we're saying let's begin at the capital city which ensures accessibility to the clientele too, to the patrons of the arts. We've seen from the financial responses from producers that shows in Port of Spain make more money than the ones on the fringes, and that's a fact. And it begins with the nature of the spaces there, but if you look at the Learning Resource Centre at UWI which is comfortable, and in some instances even more comfortable than, say, Central Bank, that because it is in the capital city (shows are more successful) … and there is another issue too. PAHO just did a study that showed we have sixty-something thousand people who live in Port of Spain, (and) we have 360,000 people who pass through on a daily basis, and when you look at that, and the implications of that in terms of a target audience or a target market, you know, it's unavoidable, that the market is there.

RR: So where do you hope to get the money for this National Theatre?

DT: Beyond the fact that we have an account for funds, we are developing a board of trustees. We are approaching people and saying 'hear nuh, we'd like you to be on the board … '

RR: And what would this board do?

DT: Raise the money: that's their focus. We want capable people who have done this before to accept the task of getting the money.

RR: How much money are you looking for?

DT: We're looking at about $ 40 million

RR: What part does the State play in this?

DT: We've made advances to the State. I'm meant to have a meeting with the Minister very early next week. There seems to be a supportive shoulder from the State, and not just that, NDATT is making moves, to expand the scope and depth of the organization as well. We've completed at least three collaborations with the State, the last of which was a theatre production skills we just completed which targeted the Best Village genre. So we're saying that that National Drama Association as an umbrella organization has a role to play, and by extending the scope (we're acting as) the precursor to a national theatre.

RR: Which brings us to the membership, role, and aspirations of NDATT. You say you just conducted State-sponsored workshops. Who have you got who is capable - I'm not saying! qualified, I'm saying capable - of teaching people the dramatic arts, teaching people what they need to know. Because I have worked, as you know, as a reviewer for the last 13 years, I think I've been the longest serving consistent reviewer, and what I have seen in the Port of Spain theatre, if you want to call it that, is a constant degeneration, a steady rate of degeneration, and right now, they're at rock bottom and they have shovels out and they're digging. So who is teaching? What are you teaching people and why do you think you can teach them?

DT: I just came back from Suriname with the Carifesta performance, and we had at least 35 countries some outside of the Caribbean, and Trinidad and Tobago's performance was by far, vastly superior to anything that came from anywhere else in the world, which included superiority of direction, lighting design, performance etc … .so I don't think that that's a question …

RR: No, that was your play, directed by Louis McWilliams …

DT: No, I directed …

RR: Your play, you directed …

DT: … (with) lighting designer, Curtis Bachan, choreographers were Hazel Franco and Terry David and Julius Irving was the musical director in collaboration with John Arnold from Tobago, so I think that the assumption that the expertise does not exist, or that the space does not accommodate people who could do work … .

RR I'm not saying that those people don't exist. The CCFA has done some good work. When I've come to your plays, I've been impressed with the quality of direction and so on … the question I asked was the Port of Spain theatre - and I don't want to call names here - these people who I associate with the practice of theatre in Port of Spain, these people who came from the Tent Theatre, how involved are they? Those people you called, I don't think they are products of the Port of Spain theatre

DT: We had involved Cecelia Salazar, and she has a degree in theatre arts.

RR: Yes … .

DT: She did our workshops for us, and did beautiful work, so the people exist, whether you have your biases about the work and the choice of work, and it might be the commitment to the work that is showing up in the end result … I am saying that there are people out there, even in the town theatre, as you put it, who could do work. And some of the … for example, the Best Village genre, needs so much help now, that once we acquire the assistance of people who know what they're doing, to provide that kind of mentorship through the process.

RR: Why does the Best Village thing need so much help? Isn't that an indictment of the idea of a national theatre? If the Best Village needs so much help, then we could imply that they have been left out of this whole theatrical thing that's been going on elsewhere. Why are their skills not higher?

DT: No, I think that the evolution of Best Village is different … to begin with, it is folk performance, and folk is folks …

RR: No, no, no. You have to be a little more specific than that.

DT . In some instances it was regarded as the raw material for the contemporary manifestations …

RR: I would strongly disagree with that …

DT: No, well lemme … .

RR: Go on … .

DT: … some of the people who are involved in what you call town theatre were involved in Best Village to start with … .and the Best Village, previously - and I'm no expert on Best Village, eh - seems to me to be more of a community development issue than a theatrical issue. The dilemma that we have now is that it has started to become the raw material for a number of other kinds of manifestations, and what we need to do is to move it from the raw material … .

RR: Define "raw material".

DT: Bele. I have used Bele in my play, and the Bele became a metaphor for the languaging … the Bele moved from a dance that Africans did to mimic the colonials, the sauntering dance … so that it becomes a merger of two cultures. I wanted to suggest in the last piece that I did, that it was a signifier or a symbol of any "sauntering" merger.

RR: Interesting …

DT: So that's what I mean by raw material, and I'm saying that what had been lacking, I think, for the Best Village practitioner, is the access to the technical expertise, available at Queen's Hall, available at, uhm … Naparima Bowl etc. And I am saying that once you engage that, once you allow the practitioners of Best Village to engage that possibility, what people will do in effect will exceed the imaginings that we have now.

RR: OK, the problem with that is that the folk - I am no great fan of the folk, I think the folk is an ideological weapon of the State - however, I must say that the folk might have its own knowledge, its own way of knowing, and what you are talking about, bringing them into your paradigm, might have an effect of erasing that particular knowledge …

DT: No … first of all, I don't think the folk is a weapon of the State or anything like that, I think that's incredulous … and secondly you are implying that when you give folk access to technology … .

RR: Not technology, I'm talking about access to your knowledge … .

DT: No, the training that we give is theatre training … we're teaching somebody to act, we're teaching somebody how a director interacts with a lighting designer … you understand what I'm saying? We're not "contemporarising" the folk; what we're saying is we have stage management, lighting design, directing, acting. Four categories. Basic projection, diction, don't turn your back to the audience …

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RR: So basic stage craft …

DT: Yes, skills, and more than basic stage craft (saying) "this is what a gobo (technical lighting term) does … simple things like that … "this is what a cyclorama does, and if you want to change the mood, you could change the colour of a cyclorama" … .So that it is just a tool, so that you're aware of the technical tools. Because Best Village finals last year happened at Naparima Bowl and Queen's Hall. So you don't want people who are practicing theatre in a theatre space and not utilizing the technical expertise available to them …you just want to arm them with the basic skills and see where that goes. That doesn't corrupt the indigenous work … moreso, my expectation is that somebody is going to come out over there, with something that we can't anticipate, and that's what we're looking forward to

RR: You're talking about Best Village and the folk and so on. So far this has been a very urban, Afrocreole kind of thing. There is an enormous theatrical potential in the Indian community, and I'm not talking about Ramleela alone. I'm talking about an entire community whose artistic potential remains largely untapped. How is NDATT going to deal with that?

DT: We've already done that … I'm already speaking to Ms Ramsubir of Ramleela, so we're heading into that. Because in your article on the 'Golden Masquerade', you said there was a parallel between the theft of Anancy and the abduction of Sita. Immediately we went to work on that … we had Susan Mohipp … because these sections of our community are also competing forces, and that was most apparent to me when I was doing the 'Masquerade'. And I don't mean just ethnic, you know, I mean parang association NCBA … because there is some value to the Carnival arts …

RR: There's a lot of value … I know you're saying that because I've been attacking them …

DT: Well I didn't know you were attacking them …

RR: Well I do, all the time, but …

DT: I meant the epic way you could present something …

RR: Indeed, the theatre of Peter Minshall.

DT: Yeah, right. So I was saying, bottom line, all these competing forces, someone has to find a way to say, "hear nuh, let's find a way to bring these things together on an annual basis! and see what comes out of this", and this is beyond Carifesta and so on, let's explore it and it creates now a step toward a national theatre - beyond the physical space. The physical space is only the start of the bacchanal, and that is the preaching that is going on here, you know, that that is just the beginning. And once you have a space that you don't have to study about $20,000 … to explore and exhibit and invite discussion … I think that the reviewer should be in the room to discuss the thing …

RR: Of course …

DT: When you made that comment (about the abduction of Sita) I called you, but I couldn't get on to you … cause we were looking to explore that just to have a sense of what you were saying, but to get back to the point, bottom line … beyond the fact that we have competing forces, we have to find a junction that is a nest. And that is what a national theatre is, it is a womb for embracing it, embracing it, exploring it discussing it, and where people could look at a thing, not have to pay to come in, and cuss it up. You know what I mean?

RR: Yeah …

DT: I like that. I like that. And at the end of the day, somebody who sitting in the room, who may have been involved in Ramleela or Best Village or contemporary theatre or whatever, decides, " hear, nuh, I don't agree, let me show you what I think", as opposed to tell you what I think. And that we could accommodate that, that vision, and discuss that, and then it simply becomes a step towards a form, a form that is continuously evolving, because of the nature of the society we live in, but it is an identifiable form. Notably when I was in Suriname because of the magnitude of the costumes, people were able to say " Trinidad and Tobago", the dances, the flow of the dances, whether it's African, Indian and so on … I think that the vista of Carnival is one of our most easily identifiable …

RR: So you'd say it is the main signifier of our country and region …

DT: Yes … and we need to extend the languaging of it, like for example when we take a Bele costume and create a Bele God, and that's just me, but my eyes aren't on me now. I'm looking at the 15-year-old who's coming up doing a Best Village or Ramleela who sees something because he has the space to do it, you know what I mean? And make a 40-foot arrow appear on a cyclorama … because he has the technology available to him … he can sit with a lighting designer and say " this is what I want, what's the best way to do it?

Luckily for me, very early on, I had a lighting designer who said "listen, I know you don't have anyone, but I'm willing to work". But that's not available to everybody …that was a blessing. I understand the map toward transition, and the space to work. The Eric Williams Medical Sciences Complex offered me the space to work … and so much so that in the second year, we were able to afford lights, because a lighting designer came and said " you know you could do this, but you need to begin thinking about this" and we don't have the place where that process occurs, where ideas meet with expertise.

Luckily for me the university was always close by, Rawle Gibbons was always there, and Efebo (Wilkinson) would pass through and say, " no maybe you need to think about it". And I think my approach to was…I'm a listener. But we need a place where listeners could come and listen before they move, or even listen while they're moving, or not listen and make their own choices, and I think that's what a national theatre is …

RR: OK, to move on. One or two concerns about NDATT. The past people who've been in control of NDATT, and again, no names, you've heard a lot of things about "we need the national theatre" and I have felt … I don't imagine the national community has a point of view on this because it's so alien to them. I've always felt that this was just a bunch of people who get around and give each other awards every year, but you are articulating something broader. The main problem with NDATT, as I see it, is that you are supposed to be the representative voice of theatre, but there are certain problems with the theatre that I have raised consistently. One - this is a specific thing, we're moving away from the big picture stuff - of the things they do to scripts, when they take somebody's script, change up a set of things in it, and then put it on, What I want to know is,! is permission sought for that. You must know that that's illegal.

DT: But you must understand, that I like to maintain focus. I see my job, at this junction, as macro.

RR: Fair enough … but it must be known that you can't do these things the people's plays

DT: And the time will arrive when we will have to deal with that …

RR: But it is an urgent matter, I think, but I am not sitting in your chair, I am free to think that …

DT: yeah I thinking about a national theatre

RR: But are you aware of these things that happen?

DT: Yeah, I've heard … .but I think that that will correct itself, it has to. The fact that we have a number of other works going internationally and so on will bring other issues to bear on situations like this … for it's a distraction

RR: Well, you have to take care of that. I'm not just lookin! g at that one practice, I'm looking at what underlies that, I think it's a kind of dishonesty…do people get paid, what are the terms of work … the reputation of the theatre is at stake

DT: Well we attempted to address some of that last year, when we invited actors to start a guild, and nobody turned up, two people turned up to the meeting. It cannot be the umbrella organization's job to start a guild to deal specifically with the needs of the actors … . But you need an actor's guild … in fact I was so blue about it, it's still on our minutes. At every monthly meeting we bring up the actors' guild … and assign somebody to make the calls …

RR: A year from now, at the end of your term, what would you like to have accomplished?

DT: If not the allocation of a national theatre, or the building of a national theatre - notice I said allocation of a national theatre - because there are a number of issues involved too. I had a look at (the Queens Hall) Act 12 of 1986 recently, which indicates clearly that the Queens Hall board ought to comprise of a representative from the theatre community, and currently that person should be nominated from the umbrella organization responsible for theatre …

RR: And they're not?

DT: No, we don't have anybody on that board … so there's no one there on that board who says "listen, let's accommodate experimentation, let's have a festival, let Queens Hall have a festival in collaboration with NDAT … So that if we have a festival for experimentation (for which) the members don't have to pay, so the people could come in and experiment … those kinds of collaborations … and that's what would evolve out of some of those things, and that doesn't exist now, and in fact, we're making moves now to address that with the Minister. And that's just the beginning, that we want somebody on that Queens Hall board. That's the bottom line. (On) the allocation of a national theatre … a number of companies expressed interest, and we're looking at some multinationals who say we may be willing to put some kind of funding … in addition, we know that a national theatre alone is not the issue. We're also looking for a home for the performing arts. So we initiated discussions with IADB to work out what the needs would be to have the government build a home for the arts. So when we approach the Minister, we're saying this is the road you need to be taking if you serious about it.

RR: So this is all you hope to have accomplished …

DT: Initiate it, or have it done, or allocated, and by initiate it I don't simply mean talk about it, I mean that there's a concrete fund with $10 million in it or the allocation of a space, or a commitment from government to build it by X day … it has to be as specific as that. That's my commitment to the task. In addition, I'm also a local government representative. I've already secured the commitment to transform the San Juan market into a theatre space … so that the lobby is happening in all directions. (We've) built an amphitheatre in Barataria and preaching for a healthy space … people think the power rests in the Corporation itself, (but) it rests in the individuals, the elected officials who say " I want my $20,000 this year to build an amphitheatre, as opposed to somebody asking the CEO, and the CEO saying "alright go ahead and build it. The elected officials have to do it. Even the village councils have to start pressuring their elected officials to build the kind of infrastructure that they require, spaces for them to dream, you know.

RR Anything else you want to bring up?

DT: Well, firstly, we want to have a scaled down version of the theatre month this year … and the larger version next year. In this one, we want to focus on workshops, we do one or two plays. What we really want to do is engage people in the way that we did last month, it was pretty successful for us in terms of the number of people who developed skills.